[Unified Braille For All] Why did NZ adopt UEB?

Christopher Gray chris at moblind.org
Fri May 11 10:37:54 CDT 2012 

Mark:

I wouldn't be doing this work if I did not believe that in some way our 
friends in BANA can be reached with reason.  Understandably, they are 
currently enamored with the idea of am English-speaking worldwide braille 
code.  But, there are many other factors to be considered.  The important 
thing is to help BANA see and come to understand those factors and their deep 
implications to the survival of braille in the United States.

Chris

On Wed, 9 May 2012, 
Mark Blier wrote:

> Hi, All,
>
> So, it all comes down to venomous politics.  Actually, why am I not really surprised?  Proponents of UEB want to fracture our already-small market, resulting in misery for all of us, just for their politics; at least, that is what it seems.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Mark Blier
> Sierra Vista, Arizona
>
> -----
>
>
> On May 9, 2012, at 1:07 PM, Christopher Gray wrote:
>
>> Mark:
>>
>> I understand your sentiments but it doesn't end the discussion.  Unless concerted effort and facts are brought to bear in the U.S. regarding the issues we might have here with UEB, it will be our code in the very near future.  I'm deeply involved in technology, but I'm also a veteran politician and I know how to count votes.  Trust, me, UEB is very close to being a done deal in the States.
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 9 May 2012, Mark Blier wrote:
>>
>>> Hi, All,
>>>
>>> This is what I thought the argument was all about:
>>>
>>> That Nemeth and NUBS take up less space to transcribe, consequently with fewer characters to read and write.  Then, UEB got snarled all through this.
>>>
>>> I will say this directly:
>>>
>>> I want nothing to do with UEB, so, in my mind, this ends the discussion.
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> Mark Blier
>>> Sierra Vista, Arizona
>>>
>>> -----
>>>
>>>
>>> On May 9, 2012, at 11:42 AM, Christopher Gray wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Carly:
>>>>
>>>> I'm not certain if I understand your question correctly, but let me give this a try.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, a person should be able to filter out some characters or some data.  The question is how much?
>>>>
>>>> Overall, UEB takes more space than EBAE (our current system) or NUBS.  Many feel the extra space taken in literary braille by UEB is negligible or virtually so.
>>>>
>>>> Many, including myself, believe that when science and math are transcribed in UEB, the space it takes and the large number of extra characters needed to braille these disciplines is objectionably large.  In fact, there are so many more characters that reading the information will transcend learning, and isn't learning the point?
>>>>
>>>> Friday, we are going to post examples of this.
>>>>
>>>> Chris
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, 8 May 2012, Carly Mihalakis wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Chris,
>>>>>
>>>>> As someone said, can't people assess which content they are looking for and, based on that be able to filter out characters that are meaningless?At 03:36 PM 5/8/2012, you wrote:
>>>>>> Carly:
>>>>>> Even in unified codes, people would certainly read specific symbols for specific disciplines.  The difference between UEB and NUBS is that for technical disciplines, you must read many, many extra symbols besides those that actually give you meaning.  Maybe tomorrow, I can put together some examples.
>>>>>> Chris
>>>>>> On Tue, 8 May 2012, Carly Mihalakis wrote:
>>>>>>> Hey, Chris,
>>>>>>> Perhaps, Yet can't various disciplines have their own genus of the code? for example, I was studying Japanese language in high school and, though I realize this has really nothing to do with the subject at hand, it illustrates the way I sought out knowledge of nihongo tenji (Japanese language braille) because I wished to write the Japanese words in the manner in which they are rightfully, expressed. So, if you're gonna study technical stuff, why not learn the braille applicable to that discipline just as sighted folks are  obligated to learn various symbols and shorthand to express themselves in those terms? Seems to me people are overthinking this issue. If some blind people want to equate their experience to that of sighted people, why does a question of whether a kid ought to learn braille prove such a doozy? Is there ever such a question raised when your average sighted person reaches the age to begin reading print? Explain to me a difference wouldja?AM 5/8/2012, you wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi Carly:
>>>>>>>> The idea behind code unification is that people should be able to start learning the base code when they begin learning braille.  As they progress, that code shouldn't change but should expand to meet their needs.
>>>>>>>> Believe it or not, this can be accomplished.  In any unified code, there are some trade offs, and those trade-offs are different depending on how the unified code is constructed.  It is unfortunate that because of the foolish insistence of UEB followers on upper numbers, the UEB is completely unsuitable for the United States.
>>>>>>>> Now, this is my opinion, and I know that there are at least several participants on this list who hold different opinions than mine.
>>>>>>>> Chris
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 8 May 2012, Carly Mihalakis wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Good morning, Laura, and others,
>>>>>>>>> Exactly my question? Why do people always wanna consolidate? Wasn't each system specific to particular, arts such as Nemmeth code, or technical stuff, part of that given discipline? As I said before, there are too many disciplines all vying for the same 6 dots. Why can't we have many systems? As it is, there indeed remains a crippling, shortage of teachers. Why do we need a whole new code that few people will end up knowing enough to teach?
>>>>>>>>> People, if it ain't broke don't worry about trying to "fix" it!  At 10:53 AM 5/8/2012, Laura De Vries wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> If there's so many people and countries opposed to it, what's causing and driving the motivation for UEB?
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan Jolly" <easjolly at ix.netcom.com>
>>>>>>>>>> To: "Unified Braille for All" <uba at moblind.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2012 11:04 AM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Unified Braille For All] Why did NZ adopt UEB?
>>>>>>>>>>> Chris, I agree that it appears that the NZ transition process is going smoothly. But this is not surprising given that something like only 100 people were directly affected and they already had a very strong centralized structure. (They did not mention post-secondary issues.)
>>>>>>>>>>> Chris asked why NZ adopted UEB despite some experts there understanding that Nemeth was better for math.
>>>>>>>>>>> The few reasons I've heard relate to the advantage of Trans-Tasman unity. (The Tasman Sea is what the part of the Pacific Ocean between Australia and New Zealand is called.)
>>>>>>>>>>> However, my guess is that another reason is that NZ did not feel they could rely on the United States not to adopt the UEB and didn't want to be the only ICEB country left with Nemeth.
>>>>>>>>>>> The underlying issue, which is more important for us, is to understand the BANA decision process and the legal ramifications.
>>>>>>>>>>> My contact in Australia told me that there was significant opposition to the adoption of UEB there during the decision process and also at the last open meeting held on the topic which I think was in 2005. (The contact was at the meeting and stayed afterward.) But the Australian Braille Authority decided what they wanted to decide nonetheless.
>>>>>>>>>>> By the way, here in New Mexico there was recently a mayoral vote held at a meeting.  More people wanted to get into the meeting than the fire marshal would permit.  So even though the people at the meeting did elect a mayor, the election was ruled invalid as being in violation of the state's open meeting law.
>>>>>>>>>>> Susan Jolly
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> UBA mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> UBA at moblind.org
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>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> UBA mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> UBA at moblind.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://moblind.org/mailman/listinfo/uba_moblind.org
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> UBA mailing list
>>>>>>>>> UBA at moblind.org
>>>>>>>>> http://moblind.org/mailman/listinfo/uba_moblind.org
>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> Christopher Gray, Executive Director
>>>>>>>> Missouri Council of the Blind
>>>>>>>> 5453 Chippewa
>>>>>>>> St. Louis, MO 63109
>>>>>>>> Phone:     (314) 832-7172
>>>>>>>> Toll-free: (800) 342-5632
>>>>>>>> Fax:       (314) 832-7796
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> UBA mailing list
>>>>>>>> UBA at moblind.org
>>>>>>>> http://moblind.org/mailman/listinfo/uba_moblind.org
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> UBA mailing list
>>>>>>> UBA at moblind.org
>>>>>>> http://moblind.org/mailman/listinfo/uba_moblind.org
>>>>>> ----------------------------------------
>>>>>> Christopher Gray, Executive Director
>>>>>> Missouri Council of the Blind
>>>>>> 5453 Chippewa
>>>>>> St. Louis, MO 63109
>>>>>> Phone:     (314) 832-7172
>>>>>> Toll-free: (800) 342-5632
>>>>>> Fax:       (314) 832-7796
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> UBA mailing list
>>>>>> UBA at moblind.org
>>>>>> http://moblind.org/mailman/listinfo/uba_moblind.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> UBA mailing list
>>>>> UBA at moblind.org
>>>>> http://moblind.org/mailman/listinfo/uba_moblind.org
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------
>>>> Christopher Gray, Executive Director
>>>> Missouri Council of the Blind
>>>>
>>>> 5453 Chippewa
>>>> St. Louis, MO 63109
>>>> Phone:     (314) 832-7172
>>>> Toll-free: (800) 342-5632
>>>> Fax:       (314) 832-7796
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> UBA mailing list
>>>> UBA at moblind.org
>>>> http://moblind.org/mailman/listinfo/uba_moblind.org
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> UBA mailing list
>>> UBA at moblind.org
>>> http://moblind.org/mailman/listinfo/uba_moblind.org
>>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------
>> Christopher Gray, Executive Director
>> Missouri Council of the Blind
>>
>> 5453 Chippewa
>> St. Louis, MO 63109
>> Phone:     (314) 832-7172
>> Toll-free: (800) 342-5632
>> Fax:       (314) 832-7796
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> UBA mailing list
>> UBA at moblind.org
>> http://moblind.org/mailman/listinfo/uba_moblind.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> UBA mailing list
> UBA at moblind.org
> http://moblind.org/mailman/listinfo/uba_moblind.org
>

----------------------------------------
Christopher Gray, Executive Director
Missouri Council of the Blind

5453 Chippewa
St. Louis, MO 63109
Phone:     (314) 832-7172
Toll-free: (800) 342-5632
Fax:       (314) 832-7796

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